Monday, April 6, 2026

The Myth of Er From the Republic of Plato

The Myth of Er From the Republic of Plato

English Translation by Jowett of Plato's Myth of Er

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Key Takeaways

  • Er was revived to share his experience of the afterlife, where good and bad actions are judged.
  • According to Er, souls can choose their new lives, depending on how they lived their past ones.
  • Er witnessed the process where souls undergo punishment or reward and then select a new existence.

The Myth of Er from Plato's Republic tells the story of a soldier, Er, who is thought to be dead and descends to the underworld. But when he revives he is sent back to tell humanity what awaits them in the afterlife.  

Er describes an afterlife where the just are rewarded and the wicked are punished. Souls are then reborn into a new body and a new life, and the new life they choose will reflect how they have lived in their previous life and the state of their soul at death. 

Back From the Dead

Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried.

And on the twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above.

Report From the Other World

In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs.

He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright.

Rewards and Punishments

And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath.

And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty.

The story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this:—He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years—such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behavior, for each and all of their offences they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion.

Sinners Cast Into Hell

I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.)

The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.'

The Belt of Heaven

And of all the many terrors which they had endured, he said that there was none like the terror which each of them felt at that moment, lest they should hear the voice; and when there was silence, one by one they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties and retributions, and there were blessings as great.

Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried seven days, on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their journey, and, on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place where they could see from above a line of light, straight as a column, extending right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in colour resembling the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day's journey brought them to the place, and there, in the midst of the light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above: for this light is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle of the universe, like the under-girders of a trireme.

Spindle of Necessity

From these ends is extended the spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions turn. The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl is made partly of steel and also partly of other materials.

Now the whorl is in form like the whorl used on earth; and the description of it implied that there is one large hollow whorl which is quite scooped out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and another, and another, and four others, making eight in all, like vessels which fit into one another; the whorls show their edges on the upper side, and on their lower side all together form one continuous whorl.

This is pierced by the spindle, which is driven home through the centre of the eighth. The first and outermost whorl has the rim broadest, and the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the following proportions—the sixth is next to the first in size, the fourth next to the sixth; then comes the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is seventh, last and eighth comes the second.

The Stars and Planets

The largest (or fixed stars) is spangled, and the seventh (or sun) is brightest; the eighth (or moon) coloured by the reflected light of the seventh; the second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are in colour like one another, and yellower than the preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest light; the fourth (Mars) is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness second.

Now the whole spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole revolves in one direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in the other, and of these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness are the seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness appeared to move according to the law of this reversed motion the fourth; the third appeared fourth and the second fifth.

The spindle turns on the knees of Necessity; and on the upper surface of each circle is a siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone or note.

The eight together form one harmony; and round about, at equal intervals, there is another band, three in number, each sitting upon her throne: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens—Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present, Atropos of the future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with one hand and then with the other.

The Spirits Arrive

When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: 'Hear the word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a new cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to you, but you will choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his destiny. Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he will have more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser—God is justified.'

When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained.

The Samples of Lives

Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man in every condition. And there were tyrannies among them, some lasting out the tyrant's life, others which broke off in the middle and came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were lives of famous men, some who were famous for their form and beauty as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, for their birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the reverse of famous for the opposite qualities.

And of women likewise; there was not, however, any definite character in them, because the soul, when choosing a new life, must of necessity become different. But there was every other quality, and the all mingled with one another, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and health; and there were mean states also.

Nature of the Soul

And here, my dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity.

He should consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the natural and acquired gifts of the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined; he will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse; and so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard.

Faith in Truth and Right

For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life and after death. A man must take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the mean and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness.

And according to the report of the messenger from the other world this was what the prophet said at the time: 'Even for the last comer, if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first be careless, and let not the last despair.' And when he had spoken, he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensuality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and did not at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to devour his own children.

Lamenting His Choice

But when he had time to reflect, and saw what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a well-ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he had no philosophy.

And it was true of others who were similarly overtaken, that the greater number of them came from heaven and therefore they had never been schooled by trial, whereas the pilgrims who came from earth having themselves suffered and seen others suffer, were not in a hurry to choose. And owing to this inexperience of theirs, and also because the lot was a chance, many of the souls exchanged a good destiny for an evil or an evil for a good.

For if a man had always on his arrival in this world dedicated himself from the first to sound philosophy, and had been moderately fortunate in the number of the lot, he might, as the messenger reported, be happy here, and also his journey to another life and return to this, instead of being rough and underground, would be smooth and heavenly. Most curious, he said, was the spectacle—sad and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in most cases based on their experience of a previous life.

There he saw the soul which had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of enmity to the race of women, hating to be born of a woman because they had been his murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras choosing the life of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like the swan and other musicians, wanting to be men.

Unable to Resist Temptation

The soul which obtained the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax the son of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering the injustice which was done him in the judgment about the arms. The next was Agamemnon, who took the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax, he hated human nature by reason of his sufferings.

About the middle came the lot of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an athlete, was unable to resist the temptation: and after her there followed the soul of Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the nature of a woman cunning in the arts; and far away among the last who chose, the soul of the jester Thersites was putting on the form of a monkey.

Good Into Gentle, Evil Into Savage

There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the recollection of former toils had disenchanted him of ambition, and he went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which was lying about and had been neglected by everybody else; and when he saw it, he said that he would have done the same had his lot been first instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it.

And not only did men pass into animals, but I must also mention that there were animals tame and wild who changed into one another and into corresponding human natures—the good into the gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of combinations.

Guardian of Their Lives

All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness, which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things.

Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He himself was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre.

The Tale Has Been Saved

And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is, that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil.

Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been describing.

Some References for Plato's "Republic"

Suggestions based on: Oxford Bibliographies Online

  • Ferrari, G. R. F. .
  • Reeve, C. D. C. .
  • White, Nicholas P. .
  • Williams, Bernard. "The Analogy of City and Soul in Plato's Republic." The Sense of the Past: Essays in the History of Philosophy. Edited by Bernard Williams, 108-117. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2006.
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Source

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-myth-of-er-120332

Wednesday, April 1, 2026

More on the Astrology of Fate by Liz Greene

More on the Astrology of Fate by Liz Greene

Liz Greene discusses the concept of Moira.

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In The Astrology of Fate, Liz Greene treats Moira (Fate) not as a simple external force of predestination, but as a complex psychological and ancestral "allotment." She moves away from the idea of fate as a series of random events and instead views it as the unfolding of an individual's innate character and heritage.

Here are the primary themes Greene explores regarding Moira:

1. The Three Moirae and the Fabric of Life

Greene uses the mythological image of the three Moirae (Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos) to describe the "spinning" of a person's life.

  • The Spinner: Represents the beginning or the potential within the seed.

  • The Allotter: Represents the specific conditions, limitations, and "portion" of life one is given.

  • The Unattainable: Represents the inevitable end or the "cut" of the thread.

To Greene, Moira is the inner blueprint or the "law of one’s own being." She suggests that what we experience as "fate" is often our own unconscious nature meeting us from the outside.

2. Genetic and Ancestral Fate

A significant portion of Greene's analysis links Moira to heredity. She argues that we are "allotted" a specific family tree, complete with its psychological complexes, traumas, and unlived lives.

  • Moira represents the boundaries set by our physical and psychological DNA.

  • She posits that we cannot escape our "portion," but we can achieve a degree of consciousness within it.

3. Moira vs. The Individual Will

Greene contrasts the Greek concept of Moira with Hybris (pride or arrogance).

  • Hybris occurs when an individual tries to overstep their "allotment" or ignore the limits of their nature.

  • Moira acts as a corrective force. When a person tries to be something they are not, "fate" intervenes to bring them back to their actual path.

4. Relationship to the Horoscope

In an astrological sense, Greene views the entire birth chart as a map of one’s Moira.

  • The Ascendant and its ruler are often highlighted as the "way in" through which fate enters the world.

  • Saturn and Pluto are frequently discussed as the planetary archetypes that most closely embody the "weight" and "inevitability" of Moira, representing the boundaries of time and the necessity of transformation.

5. Fate as "Character in Time"

Following the Heraclitean idea that "Character is Destiny," Greene argues that Moira is the process of character revealing itself over time. By studying the myths associated with the planets in a chart, an individual can begin to see the "story" they are fated to live out, shifting the experience of fate from a "sentence" to a meaningful "destiny."

Key Takeaway: For Greene, Moira is the "daimon" or the "inner law." To follow one's Moira is to live in accordance with one's true nature; to fight it is to experience fate as a series of catastrophic external "accidents."

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In The Astrology of Fate, Liz Greene argues that the family is the primary vessel through which Moira (fate) is delivered to the individual. She posits that we are not born as "blank slates," but rather as the next chapter in an ongoing family narrative.

Greene’s perspective on fate and the family focuses on these core concepts:

1. The "Family Myth"

Greene suggests that every family operates under a specific "myth" or "theme"—such as the family of "failed artists," "perpetual victims," or "pioneers."

  • The Allotment: Fate, in the form of the family, gives us our initial "portion" of reality.

  • Unconscious Inheritance: We often "inherit" the unlived lives or unresolved psychological conflicts of our parents and grandparents. Greene views this inheritance as a fated burden that the individual must eventually address.

2. Genetic Fate and the Birth Chart

Greene treats the birth chart as a map of biological and psychological heredity. She notes that certain planetary configurations often repeat across generations (e.g., a grandmother, father, and daughter all having a prominent Saturn-Moon aspect).

  • This repetition suggests that a particular "complex" is working its way through the family line.

  • The "fate" here is the necessity of dealing with these inherited patterns, which Greene believes are visible in the horoscope from the moment of birth.

3. The Role of the "Scapegoat"

A recurring theme in her work is the individual who is "fated" to carry the family's "shadow."

  • If a family denies its own anger, depression, or creativity, one child may be "allotted" (by Moira) the task of expressing that repressed trait.

  • To the family, this person looks like a "problem," but to Greene, they are fulfilling a fated role to bring the family's unconscious material into the light.

4. Choice Within the Fated Pattern

Greene makes a vital distinction: while we cannot choose our family or the psychological "DNA" they pass down, we can choose how we relate to it.

  • Fate as a Sentence: If we remain unconscious of our family patterns, we repeat them blindly (e.g., marrying the same "type" of person as a parent).

  • Fate as Destiny: If we become conscious of the family myth, we can begin to transform it. We still live within the "allotment" of our family history, but we find a more creative or individual way to express those same energies.

5. Ancestral Ghosts

Greene often references the idea that the "sins of the fathers" are visited upon the children—not as a punishment from a vengeful God, but as a psychological law. What one generation refuses to face, the next generation is "fated" to experience as an external event or an internal compulsion.

"The family is the first experience of the world and the first experience of the Moirae... the individual is the growing tip of a very old tree." — Liz Greene

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In The Astrology of Fate, Liz Greene views the vertical axis of the horoscope—the 4th and 10th Houses—as the primary "genetic" backbone where the Moira of the family is most visible.

Here is how she interprets these areas regarding fated family patterns:

The 4th House: The "Subterranean" Inheritance

Greene describes the 4th House (the IC) as the "bottom" of the chart, representing the psychic roots and the literal soil from which the individual grows.

  • The Ancestral Collective: She views this house as the container for the "ghosts" of the family. If there are heavy planets here (like SaturnPluto, or Chiron), it often suggests a fated necessity to "pay off" an ancestral debt or resolve a secret that the family has suppressed.

  • The Subjective Parent: Rather than just "the father" or "the mother," Greene sees the 4th House as the individual's subjective experience of their roots. The fate here is the internal feeling of "belonging" or "alienation" that dictates one’s emotional security for life.

The 10th House: The Social "Calling" and Lineage

The 10th House (the Midheaven) is the "fruit" of the family tree. It represents how the family's history pushes the individual out into the world.

  • Parental Expectations: Greene notes that the 10th House often shows the "unlived life" of the parents. A person may feel "fated" to pursue a certain career or status not because they want it, but because they are fulfilling a script handed down by the lineage.

  • Moira as Reputation: This house reflects the "destiny" one meets in the public eye. Greene suggests that the planet ruling the MC acts as a "guide" or "daimon," leading the individual toward their specific allotment in the collective.

The Parental Axis and Planetary Aspects

Greene pays close attention to the planets that bridge or sit in these houses:

PlanetFated Family Theme in Greene's View
SaturnRepresents the "Weight of the Past." Often indicates a family history of heavy responsibility, restriction, or "the law." Fate is experienced as duty.
PlutoIndicates "The Family Secret." Suggests a lineage dealing with power struggles, loss, or deep transformations. Fate is experienced as a compulsory "death and rebirth."
NeptuneRepresents "The Family Myth or Sacrifice." Often points to a history of addiction, artistic longing, or "the vanished" ancestor. Fate is experienced as a feeling of drifting or seeking a lost paradise.
UranusIndicates "The Family Rebel." A fated pattern of sudden breaks, exile, or intellectual brilliance that sets the individual apart from the roots.

The "Fated" Aspect: Squares and Oppositions

Greene believes that hard aspects between the planets in these houses (or between the rulers of the 4th and 10th) create the "friction" necessary for fate to unfold.

  • An Opposition across this axis suggests a person who is pulled between the "fate of the roots" (staying with the family) and the "fate of the future" (becoming an individual).

  • Square from a planet in another house to this axis represents a "crisis" point where the individual's personal desires clash with the fated family narrative.

Greene concludes that by looking at these houses, you aren't just seeing "who you are," but "whose you are"—the specific stream of history you were born to channel.

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In The Astrology of Fate, Liz Greene devotes a significant portion of the book to exploring how specific mythological motifs act as "blueprints" for the fated patterns we experience in life. She suggests that when we are "in" a myth, we are caught in a fated sequence of events that will play out according to the internal logic of that story.

While she references many myths, she specifically categorizes the experience of fate into several "Mythic Themes" that correlate with the planetary archetypes and house structures.

1. The Theme of the Hero

This is the most common Western mythic theme, often associated with the Sun and Mars.

  • The Fate: A necessity to separate from the "mother" (the unconscious or the family) and establish an individual identity.

  • The Struggle: The hero is fated to meet "dragons" (obstacles/shadows). Greene notes that the hero's "fate" is often brought about by their own courage—or their own arrogance (hybris).

2. The Theme of the Victim and the Redeemer

Often linked to Neptune and the 12th House, this theme deals with the fated experience of helplessness or sacrifice.

  • The Fate: One feels "allotted" a life of suffering or is required to give up personal desires for a "higher" or collective cause.

  • The Trap: The individual may become fated to repeat patterns of betrayal or disappointment until they realize they are trying to "redeem" a family ghost or an ancestral tragedy.

3. The Theme of the Great Mother

This involves the Moon and the 4th House. It centers on the cycles of birth, growth, and decay.

  • The Fate: A deep binding to the earth, the body, and the biological lineage.

  • The Struggle: The individual may feel "fated" to remain a child or to be "devoured" by family obligations. Fate here is experienced as the inexorable pull of nature and instinct.

4. The Theme of the King (The Law-Giver)

Associated with Saturn and the 10th House.

  • The Fate: This is the myth of Order. The individual is fated to deal with structure, time, and consequence.

  • The Struggle: The "Old King" eventually becomes rigid and must be replaced. Fate is experienced as the "weight of the world" or the inevitable downfall that comes when one refuses to change an outdated law or ego-structure.

5. The Theme of the Lovers

Associated with Venus and the 7th House, but also the myth of Eros and Psyche.

  • The Fate: Fate is delivered through "The Other." The individual's life is redirected by a fated encounter or a "thunderbolt" of attraction.

  • The Struggle: The necessity of developing "conscious relatedness." Greene argues that we are often fated to love people who embody the parts of ourselves we have disowned.

6. The Theme of the Rebel or the Outsider

Linked to Uranus and the 11th House.

  • The Fate: A fated "exile" from the tribe or family. The individual is "allotted" the role of the one who sees the future or speaks the truth that no one wants to hear.

  • The Struggle: The "Promethean" fate—stealing fire and being punished for it. The individual feels fated to be misunderstood until they accept their role as a catalyst for change.

7. The Theme of the Underworld (Death and Rebirth)

Associated with Pluto and the 8th House.

  • The Fate: This is the most "compulsory" myth. It involves the fated loss of what we value most to force a deep psychological transformation.

  • The Struggle: The myth of Persephone or Inanna. The individual is "fated" to go into the darkness. Greene views this not as a punishment, but as an evolutionary necessity of the soul.


Why "Mythic" Themes?

Greene uses these themes to show that "fate" is a story. If you have a strong Pluto placement, you are living the "Underworld" myth. Things will be taken away, and you will be forced to transform. If you try to live the "Hero" myth instead (trying to fight the loss with willpower), you will experience fate as a "catastrophe" because you are acting against the "script" of your own allotment.

By identifying which mythic theme is active in a birth chart, Greene believes we can move from being "victims" of fate to "co-authors" of our destiny.

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In The Astrology of Fate, Liz Greene distinguishes between Saturn and Pluto as two different "faces" of Moira. While both represent necessity and the limits of human will, they operate at different depths of the psyche and the family line.

Saturn: The Moira of the "Visible" Law

For Greene, Saturn represents fate as Retribution and Boundary. It is the most "earthly" expression of Moira, often manifesting as the consequences of our past actions or the rigid structures of the physical world.

  • The Master of Time: Saturn embodies the "Atropos" aspect of the Moirae—the one who cuts the thread. It represents the fated reality that everything in the material world has a beginning, a duration, and an end.

  • The "Old King": Greene links Saturn to the myth of the established order. Fate under Saturn is often experienced as duty, guilt, or social pressure. It is the "allotment" of our social standing and the "law" we must obey to survive in the world.

  • The Corrective Force: When we commit hybris (overstepping our natural limits), Saturn is the fate that brings us back down to earth through delay, obstacle, or failure. It isn't "punishment" in a moral sense, but a mechanical "narrowing" of our path to keep us within our proper bounds.


Pluto: The Moira of the "Invisible" Compulsion

Pluto represents a much older, more primitive form of fate. Greene associates Pluto with the Eumenides (the Furies) and the dark, subterranean forces of the collective unconscious.

  • The Ancestral Debt: While Saturn is your personal "contract" with reality, Pluto is the Family Contract. It represents fated events that seem to have nothing to do with your own choices, but rather with the "unresolved business" of your ancestors.

  • The Compulsory Descent: Pluto’s Moira is the fate of Transformation. It is the "allotment" that requires the death of the ego-identity. Greene argues that when Pluto is active, the individual is "fated" to lose something—not because they were "bad," but because the soul requires a total stripping away of the old to allow for new growth.

  • The Power of the Spindle: If Saturn is the "limit" of the thread, Pluto is the "weight" on the spindle that keeps the thread spinning. It is the raw, instinctual power of life and death that is entirely outside of human control.


The Comparison: How They Meet Fate

Greene often compares the two to help the reader distinguish which "kind" of fate is at work:

FeatureSaturn's MoiraPluto's Moira
ExperienceFelt as Restriction or "No."Felt as Obsession or "Must."
OriginPersonal history and social structure.Ancestral history and biological instinct.
ResponseRequires Patience and Responsibility.Requires Surrender and Honesty.
The GoalTo build a Mature Ego within limits.To serve the Evolution of the Soul.

The "Fated" Combination

When Saturn and Pluto interact in a chart (by aspect or transit), Greene suggests a particularly potent form of Moira is at play. She views this as the "end of an era" in the family line. The individual is fated to provide the structure (Saturn) for a massive, deep-seated change (Pluto) that has been building for generations. It is the fate of "the one who must rebuild the ruins."

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Source

Google Gemini